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	<title>Comments on: Copenhagen: No failure, but just not good enough</title>
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	<link>http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/</link>
	<description>Small Talk</description>
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		<title>By: Reckless Rose</title>
		<link>http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>Reckless Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/#comment-129</guid>
		<description>Well to a certain extent this is all voluntary. China, Brazil, US, S-Africa and India have agreed on just that. Only problems are: No trade and cap, no sanctions. 

China has already made cuts voluntary, and they  will achieve their targets easily, without any adjustments. 

Embargoes are indeed easier. But Iraq has much to thank America for, however reluctantly they will admit it. Problem is America holds such a great sway over this world in innovative, economical terms. Take down America by embargoes, and you take down the dollar with it. China and Japan will never accept such embargoes, they hold nearly all their reserves in dollars.

Besides, I don&#039;t think it&#039;ll work. Embargoes are good when they are directed at a state that does inhumane things. What they&#039;re doing know is milieu neglect. Not anything less worse, but less vivid and morally problematic to many. Stopping flows of oil will not hurt just America: Countries that sell oil often depend on oil sales; prices will fall thanks to lowering demand, and the sellers will be as hard hit as America. You could impose extra taxes to punish Western countries of course. But the World Trade Organization wouldn&#039;t accept that. 

No I definitely think that a climate bill with legal force, sanctions and a cap and trade system is the best way forward. The best we can say at this moment is that Copenhagen didn&#039;t rule it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well to a certain extent this is all voluntary. China, Brazil, US, S-Africa and India have agreed on just that. Only problems are: No trade and cap, no sanctions. </p>
<p>China has already made cuts voluntary, and they  will achieve their targets easily, without any adjustments. </p>
<p>Embargoes are indeed easier. But Iraq has much to thank America for, however reluctantly they will admit it. Problem is America holds such a great sway over this world in innovative, economical terms. Take down America by embargoes, and you take down the dollar with it. China and Japan will never accept such embargoes, they hold nearly all their reserves in dollars.</p>
<p>Besides, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;ll work. Embargoes are good when they are directed at a state that does inhumane things. What they&#8217;re doing know is milieu neglect. Not anything less worse, but less vivid and morally problematic to many. Stopping flows of oil will not hurt just America: Countries that sell oil often depend on oil sales; prices will fall thanks to lowering demand, and the sellers will be as hard hit as America. You could impose extra taxes to punish Western countries of course. But the World Trade Organization wouldn&#8217;t accept that. </p>
<p>No I definitely think that a climate bill with legal force, sanctions and a cap and trade system is the best way forward. The best we can say at this moment is that Copenhagen didn&#8217;t rule it out.</p>
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		<title>By: Canada Guy</title>
		<link>http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator>Canada Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/#comment-128</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, sanctions are hard.  Embargoes are easier.  If a large block of third world countries decide to stop selling oil, natural gas, uranium, etc to the west, this will seriously bite.  If just one country does it, the US could invade or bomb them, but what if 50 countries get together?  I think, in the end, this is probably the only method that will work.  I still hope we&#039;ll somehow get a global agreement, and we&#039;ll voluntarily reduce emissions.  But the realist in me says we&#039;ll only make the changes that are necessary when we have no other choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, sanctions are hard.  Embargoes are easier.  If a large block of third world countries decide to stop selling oil, natural gas, uranium, etc to the west, this will seriously bite.  If just one country does it, the US could invade or bomb them, but what if 50 countries get together?  I think, in the end, this is probably the only method that will work.  I still hope we&#8217;ll somehow get a global agreement, and we&#8217;ll voluntarily reduce emissions.  But the realist in me says we&#8217;ll only make the changes that are necessary when we have no other choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Reckless Rose</title>
		<link>http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>Reckless Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/#comment-127</guid>
		<description>Correct, but who is gonig to pay sanctions to 3rd world countries? Do you think that without legal force rich nations will accept that? Some will be quick to withdraw their subsidy money agreed to in Copenhagen.

Imposing sanctions can be done, but it only works if everyone joins the game. One opt out, and others will be very reluctant to pay. This was Kyoto&#039;s problem: Many joined, but some major players did not join forces. Why would anyone pay for pollution, if America, as the world&#039;s second biggest polluter, doesn&#039;t take it seriously? 

We won&#039;t get anywhere if cheats aren&#039;t punished. But if we want to be able to punish those who cheat, we need both rules and all the participants of the &#039;pollution-game&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correct, but who is gonig to pay sanctions to 3rd world countries? Do you think that without legal force rich nations will accept that? Some will be quick to withdraw their subsidy money agreed to in Copenhagen.</p>
<p>Imposing sanctions can be done, but it only works if everyone joins the game. One opt out, and others will be very reluctant to pay. This was Kyoto&#8217;s problem: Many joined, but some major players did not join forces. Why would anyone pay for pollution, if America, as the world&#8217;s second biggest polluter, doesn&#8217;t take it seriously? </p>
<p>We won&#8217;t get anywhere if cheats aren&#8217;t punished. But if we want to be able to punish those who cheat, we need both rules and all the participants of the &#8216;pollution-game&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Canada Guy</title>
		<link>http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>Canada Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/#comment-126</guid>
		<description>I hope you are right, but without sanctions against Canada, or other countries that have violated Kyoto, how are we going to convince people that some other deal would be any different?

All I&#039;m suggesting is we don&#039;t need to wait.  If a bloc of third world countries impose sanctions now, that could have a real impact.  If nothing else, it could bring a lot of pressure to bear to ensure that the next talks result in strong emissions reduction targets with enforcement clauses that bite.  There&#039;s no reason why the world needs to wait for the UN.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope you are right, but without sanctions against Canada, or other countries that have violated Kyoto, how are we going to convince people that some other deal would be any different?</p>
<p>All I&#8217;m suggesting is we don&#8217;t need to wait.  If a bloc of third world countries impose sanctions now, that could have a real impact.  If nothing else, it could bring a lot of pressure to bear to ensure that the next talks result in strong emissions reduction targets with enforcement clauses that bite.  There&#8217;s no reason why the world needs to wait for the UN.</p>
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		<title>By: Reckless Rose</title>
		<link>http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-125</link>
		<dc:creator>Reckless Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/#comment-125</guid>
		<description>Kyoto was legally binding, but only on paper. The US never ratified it, and it only got legally binding in 2004, after Russia joined forces. Such a treaty cannot be taken seriously; it was a nice try, but not near good enough.

I blame Canada for not living up to their word, but the same goes for Norway (and many other countries). When you set limits, you need sanctions to strengthen them. Copenhagen gave us neither of those. This means we will have to do more to get a good deal, which will hopefully happen next year.

Don&#039;t get me wrong; I&#039;m on your side in thinking our efforts miss the point. It is not our interest we are defending in Copenhagen, it is our interest we are defying by not agreeing on a good deal. It has left us with a framework however, maybe that&#039;ll create room for something better. Many issues that have been discussed were pointless. They knew all along what needs to be done, and each country knew, more or less, what other would and would not accept.

Lobbying and ongoing discussions in the months to come must create a bigger consensus before talks are started.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kyoto was legally binding, but only on paper. The US never ratified it, and it only got legally binding in 2004, after Russia joined forces. Such a treaty cannot be taken seriously; it was a nice try, but not near good enough.</p>
<p>I blame Canada for not living up to their word, but the same goes for Norway (and many other countries). When you set limits, you need sanctions to strengthen them. Copenhagen gave us neither of those. This means we will have to do more to get a good deal, which will hopefully happen next year.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong; I&#8217;m on your side in thinking our efforts miss the point. It is not our interest we are defending in Copenhagen, it is our interest we are defying by not agreeing on a good deal. It has left us with a framework however, maybe that&#8217;ll create room for something better. Many issues that have been discussed were pointless. They knew all along what needs to be done, and each country knew, more or less, what other would and would not accept.</p>
<p>Lobbying and ongoing discussions in the months to come must create a bigger consensus before talks are started.</p>
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		<title>By: Canada Guy</title>
		<link>http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator>Canada Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/#comment-124</guid>
		<description>Canada signed Kyoto, but under two different governments (Liberal and Conservative) it has been ignored and our emissions have risen dramatically.  And Kyoto is supposed to be legally binding.  Where are the consequences of our breaking a treaty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Canada signed Kyoto, but under two different governments (Liberal and Conservative) it has been ignored and our emissions have risen dramatically.  And Kyoto is supposed to be legally binding.  Where are the consequences of our breaking a treaty?</p>
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		<title>By: Reckless Rose</title>
		<link>http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>Reckless Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/#comment-123</guid>
		<description>I will judge it to be a failure if we will prove unable to come up with a replacement of the Kyoto protocol, which expires in about two years. 

They have demolished hopes, that much is clear. But there are outlines, &#039;gentlemen&#039; agreements as you&#039;ll almost be inclined to say, that we&#039;ll have to cling on to. I don&#039;t think Brazil will pose a big obstacle, they&#039;re not entirely senseless there (not at all actually), and China has so far been more decisive in acting than America (regardless of what their reasons were). 

Whether or not Copenhagen is a failure will become clear next year. Until then, I will label it as a big let-down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will judge it to be a failure if we will prove unable to come up with a replacement of the Kyoto protocol, which expires in about two years. </p>
<p>They have demolished hopes, that much is clear. But there are outlines, &#8216;gentlemen&#8217; agreements as you&#8217;ll almost be inclined to say, that we&#8217;ll have to cling on to. I don&#8217;t think Brazil will pose a big obstacle, they&#8217;re not entirely senseless there (not at all actually), and China has so far been more decisive in acting than America (regardless of what their reasons were). </p>
<p>Whether or not Copenhagen is a failure will become clear next year. Until then, I will label it as a big let-down.</p>
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		<title>By: Canada Guy</title>
		<link>http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-122</link>
		<dc:creator>Canada Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jurnan.eu/2009/12/copenhagen-no-failure-but-just-not-good-enough/#comment-122</guid>
		<description>Copenhagen has indeed failed.  The UN has failed to address the most important crisis in human history.  This is now the time for sanctions, boycotts and embargoes.  A new alliance is needed. An alliance of hope and peace and justice must be built to oppose the axis of pollution, extinction and self destruction.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/2009/12/beyond-copenhagen.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/2009/12/beyond-copenhagen.html&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Copenhagen has indeed failed.  The UN has failed to address the most important crisis in human history.  This is now the time for sanctions, boycotts and embargoes.  A new alliance is needed. An alliance of hope and peace and justice must be built to oppose the axis of pollution, extinction and self destruction.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/2009/12/beyond-copenhagen.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/2009/12/beyond-copenhagen.html</a></p>
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